I know that I am new to the debate, but I could not help but notice the amount of vitriol that has been posted in the comments. Just for a little background I got married when I was 21. I have been married to that same woman for almost 17 years now. I have six children including one daughter (12). I am a sold out, born again follower of Jesus Christ. For the most part I agree with Mrs. Maken. What I have been having a hard time with is the argument that it is all men’s fault. I think that if we use that as an argument we are oversimplifying the problem. In order to get this problem resolved it is going to take a lot of change on both sides.
Since the sixties there have been a number of radical societal changes all of these changes have been detrimental to marriage as an institution. One of the biggest being our current divorce laws. The laws have made getting married a virtual minefield for men. Men on the whole want to get married what they don’t want is to be into that marriage 10 years with 2 or 3 children only to find out that his wife is "unhappy" and wants a divorce. Where is the commitment then? Women file the majority of divorces, and when it comes to the outcome of those divorces men generally end up with the short end of the stick. Marriage is more than a 50-50 split it involves each person giving 100% of themselves to make it work. This is my point if a man does not have a reasonable expectation of this then he is not likely to present himself to this risk. Does that mean that he is doing the right thing? I personally do not think so, but it is the reality of what we have sown as a society.
The question is how do we get to the point that marriage is seen as valuable by both men and women. I do not think that there is a simple fix to the problem. While I do think that there is a lot that the leadership in our churches can do to encourage marriage as the desired state, It needs to be done without condemnation of those who are still single. I also think that we need to go farther than that. Our church leadership needs to be actively involved in helping families to teach their children the value of marriage and teaching our daughters to value being keepers in the home. Society on the whole has looked down upon this. Being a homemaker is seen as almost second class and "unfulfilling". This type of thinking is going to have to be discouraged.
Teaching our children these things is more of a long-term solution though. In the short term we have to deal with the problem at hand. We need to teach that marriage is a preferred state. To that end men have to be encouraged to seek out a bride, but on the flip side women have to be willing to give men what they are looking for in a wife. The big thing will be the willingness to forgo the "right" to a no fault divorce. Women will also need to "advertise". If you want to get married let be widely known you are in the market, and that you are looking for a true lifetime commitment. Do not be afraid of doing what it takes to get his attention. Most men are oblivious to what is obvious to you. I am a prime example. My wife got my attention in an unusual way. To this day I consider myself to be one of the most blessed men on this planet because she did.
I hope I am not coming off as too one sided. I think there is plenty of blame to spread around to both sides. The question is are we as Christians willing to quit the blame game and do what is needed to get beyond the problem?
Update:
Well it seems that Triton was wrong. Mrs Maken is no more interested in publishing the opposition's posts than she is in intellectual honesty.
7 comments:
You've made some good points, Eaglewood.
So far, your comment hasn't been posted. I'm betting it will, though, once Debbie gets around to it.
The question is how do we get to the point that marriage is seen as valuable by both men and women.
This is the whole crux of the matter. Marriage wouldn't exist in the first place if it didn't confer some benefit to both parties. Until both parties once again see it as a benefit, this crisis will continue.
For the most part I agree with Mrs. Maken.
It might be helpful if you were a bit more specific. Here are a few of her opinions:
- The "gift of singleness" stuff is not a good lesson to be teaching.
- There is a marriage crisis.
- The marriage crisis is mainly a result of men failing to lead.
- The desperately single woman should dump any boyfriend who does not propose marriage within three months of dating.
- A man who willfully chooses to remain single is sinning.
- A man who does not marry is robbing a woman of a husband.
- Poor or blue-collar men are unacceptable husbands for middle class women (this, I believe, is a result of Maken's Indian background and the oppressive caste system they have over there).
- Unwillingness to marry is a sign of immaturity or selfishness.
(This is all I got off the top of my head. Check out her blog or Anakin's for more.)
Of these points, I agree with the first two. I disagree with the rest.
The reason I blog about this, though, is the idea that a man who does not wish to marry is sinning. I am such a man, and that makes Maken's attack personal. If she hadn't accused me and others like me of exhibiting poor stewardship of our bodies, then I probably wouldn't have started blogging about the Marriage Mandate movement.
It's possible that I'll marry some day. But it won't be any day in the near future, and it certainly won't be because Debbie Maken tells me to.
I agree Triton. When I wrote this I was at work on my lunch break and that did not give me much time to truly go through it point by point. the whole thing of staying single being a sin is bogus as far as I am concerned. I can not help of think about Paul who wrote a good portion of the New Testament stayed single. If it was a sin then he would have been guilty.
The three month rule is not long enough for someone to learn what someone is like. Most people recommend at least a year just to get to know if that person is the right person. Marriage is a lifelong commitment and under normal circumstances should never be rushed into.
I could go on but I think we agree.
what about arrainged marriages. If marriage were not the passionate mushy thing it has become, based solely on feelings and emotions, and rooted in commitment then there would not be a marriage crisis.
I have not read any of her stuff so I am not commenting on it. When marriage is based on committment and not feelings or emotions, them marriage works.
I could go on but I think we agree.
Yeah, I think we do, too.
The three month rule is not long enough for someone to learn what someone is like.
Yeah, I think most folks would agree with that. And asking your date, "What kind of eunuch are you?" ain't such a swell idea either. Had I been Debbie's date that day, I'd have walked out right then and there.
It's easy for folks, at first blush, to say "I agree with Debbie Maken". After all, she's defending marriage, and there's a marriage crisis, so she's doing some good, right? Once you start examining her positions in depth, though, it's like Wonderland - things just get curiouser and curiouser.
Arranged marriages certainly work, Jimmie, if the goal is to produce as many offspring as possible. India is a good example.
I don't think they are necessary, though. Arranged marriages have never existed in America in any significant numbers, yet there hasn't been a problem with marriage or producing children until quite recently. In the 18th century, the average household had around ten kids.
And frankly, arranged marriages offend my sense of liberty. In fact, I don't see much difference between an arranged marriage and slavery.
Getting back to a pre-feminist, 18th century way of doing things would do the trick, and is the best solution, in my opinion.
With the sex crazed society in which we live, I do not find the dating ritual as very productive to sexual purity.
The falling in love and out of love scars the heart and is self destructive as well as devistating to the marriage relationship. I am not promoting arrainged marriage, but I am promoting a less sexually charged courtship ritual in which men and women may participate.
If the believer is to participate in spouse finding, then what is acceptable for the believer?
I asked my wife on our second date and we were married 10 months later. that was 23 years ago. Was it arrainged, only by God.
She is still the most precious thing in my life. Is it hard work, heck yeah! Is it a committment to God's standard, heck yeah! Are either of us the best we could be, NO. But we are still committed to one thing, pleasing our Father in Heaven with our personal relationship with each other.
First of all I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote to Ms. Maken. I have been on her case for over a month now with no response, so chances are you will not get one either.
Second, I did not thank you for visiting my blog this week. I'm glad you were there, appreciated your comments.
Could you elaborate further over there on Gov. Huckabee and his problems for homeschoolers.
I would like to know what he said, and then what he actually did.
Thanks again for your comments.
farmer Tom
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