A Prophet's Challenge

"Here's the deal: It was impossible for anyone to be born-again until Yeshua did it. You're mistaken that he was not in need of that experience. It was necessary for him because he was born a human and it would never have been possible for us if he had not done it first. (The latter being the reason he was born as a human in the first place.)

You,re thinking of the born-again experience through the lens of religion. Sin was the cause of the problem but it's not the problem itself." 

Digital Cowboy

Lets go through this again because I think we just walked right on past each other here. My statement about Yeshua not needing spiritual rebirth is correct. While he was 100% man he is also 100% G_d and he had no sin in His life. We need a rebirth because of our sin, as I said Yeshua has none. Did He need to make the sacrifice? Yes He did, because it was the way that Jehovah had set forth for us to be reconciled to Him, as was shown in the Levitical sacrificial requirements. Yeshua Himself had no need to be rescued from His sin, because He had none, that is why He has no reason to be reborn.

As to your statement that it was impossible to be born-again before Yeshua sacrificed Himself for us, it is simply not true. All one has to do is look at the story of Abraham in that he was specifically told that his faith was counted as righteousness. What was that faith in? It was in the fact that he knew Jehovah would send that sacrifice to atone for our sins. Job was even before the time of Abraham and was counted as right before G_d. I could name others such as Enoch, but I am getting redundant. Jehovah is not bound by time and neither is His sacrifice.

Cowboy, you have danced around long enough. You have made some bold statements here and over at Heidi's. For the most part nobody has challenged you on those statements. I think mostly out of respect, but I think there is a deeper level as well. So I am going to give you the opportunity to put up or shut up. I have tried to show your error in a gentle manner in the last post. I will make no claim on being gentle in the future. You have made the claims so the onus is on you to back them up. You have made the claim that you have the special knowledge that we have gotten it wrong over the last 2000 years. You claim that your job is to destroy religion so lets see you make your case. Ambiguities will be called out and shown for what they are. So far I have withheld judgement because it could be a simple misunderstanding on my part of what you have said, but you have danced around that line without actually crossing it. I am now calling on you to show your hand. I am not afraid to challenge what I believe, I have been doing it for years since He called me to be one of His prophets. I have been challenged a number of times, even called a heretic. So bring both barrels and let me have it, I promise you I will be standing in the end.

Firstborn

Since
Cowboy responded to my last post I have been in prayer concerning my
response to Him, especially in light of his comments over at Heidi's.
He left me with the following verse to back up his claim:

For
those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to
the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many
brethren;

Romans
8:29 NASB

The
point in question has to do with just what firstborn among many
means.

On this,
you're simply mistaken and it's the reason I pointed it out in my
blog post the way I did. You can find the evidence in Romans 8:29,
for one.

The verse you
quoted was him speaking before he was resurrected. He most certainly
was the only begotten son then. Now he's the first
born among
many
because he came to make the way for us to follow him.

That's what
the born-again experience is about. It's also why I pick these nits
with you. These are silly religious ideas. This very misunderstanding
plays into things I read in this post and your comments at my place
that disturb me.

I'm not a mere mortal and neither are you, as just one example.

Digital
Cowboy

Based upon
what he wrote you can make what conclusion you want, but I am quite
sure Cowboy has taken "firstborn" to mean a chronological order
of birth. I do believe I can show that simply by using the Word that
Cowboy is the one who is mistaken.

First we go
to Colossians:

13 For He rescued us from the domain
of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the
image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For
by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He
is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first
place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for
all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all
things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Colossians
1: 13-20 NASB

Putting
things in context shows that in this case the title firstborn has to
do with preeminence not with order of birth, the same can be said for
Romans 8:29.

15 For you
have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you
have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out,
"Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit Himself
testifies with our spirit
that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of
God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so
that we may also be glorified with Him.18 For I consider that the
sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with
the glory that is to be revealed to us.19 For the anxious longing of
the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but
because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom
of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole
creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until
now. 23
And not only this,
but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we
ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as
sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope;
for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we
do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26 In the same
way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to
pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with
groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows
what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints
according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all
things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who
are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew,
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so
that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom
He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also
justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31What
then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against
us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for
us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Romans
8: 15-32 NASB

Again,
context is everything. When verse 29 is shown in the context of the
other verses it becomes clear that the writer is not discussing birth
order, but preeminence. Why go through the trouble of showing that we
are adopted into the Kingdom only to say we are begotten children?
Yeshua was very clear when discussing salvation with Nicodemus that
He was the only begotten Son. This was a direct reference to His
earthly birth and the divine nature of His conception. Yeshua had no
need for a spiritual rebirth as we need due to our sin nature. Yeshua
is specific that being "Born-again" is a birth of the spirit when
our new nature in Him is born.

While I
am sure that Cowboy will respond that this is simply religious talk,
brought upon by years if indoctrination in religion, he can be rest
assured that it had nothing to do with it. I have had a strong
disdain for most organized religion for some time. I have found that
most churches take a dim view upon someone who calls himself a
prophet and challenges the conventional wisdom. All of my
conclusions have been from seeking the Holy Spirit and asking for His
guidance. At one point I was even open to the idea that Cowboy could
be right, but the Spirit squashed that real quick.

I will
address some of the other things he has said but those are for
another post and another time.

Whoa There Cowboy

Digital
Cowboy and I go back a ways in the blogging world in fact something
he wrote was one of the fist things I wrote about. Funny thing is
that it parallels the discussion we are having now. I think I should
start at the beginning. He wrote this post to which I responded:

" I am glad to see you posting again. I know we
have had our differences in the past and we will probably have some
here as well, but I want to agree with you first. Kirk and friends
are doing things the wrong way. Scaring people does nothing but scare
them away. I will even agree with you and the third commandment. But
where we part company here is on whether or not the ten commandments
are now two. I know what you are referencing here and it comes from
the Pharisees attempting to trip up Yeshua in asking him what the
greatest commandment was. He summed up the ten commandments into two.
He did not say that they replaced the ten or that what he said
negated them in any was as part of the Law. Yeshua himself said that
He came to fulfil the Law not to destroy it. Also by saying the ten
are now the two you are in danger of making the claim that He has
changed when he has specifically said he is the same past, present,
or future.

We are
all guilty of trying to put Him into a box that fits our comfort
level. I know we have discussed this before and I know where you
stand but others may not. There is a great danger when we simply
approach Him from one angle and only discuss one aspect of Him. Love
is only one aspect, He is Holy, Righteous, and The Great I AM. He has
more facets then we as mere mortals could even begin to comprehend.
You know there have been times that I needed Him to be Daddy, but I
have never forgotten that he is the all-powerful creator of the
universe and is more than worthy of my total worshipful adoration. "

I was
going to respond in a totally different way to his response until I went back and reread his post and read what Cowboy added. I was feeling a little
pushed and pigeonholed into the same camp as Kirk and Ray at the time. I do have
one nit to pick at the end but I will save it for then.

You
state that the Law is flawed. I would say the flaw is not in the Law
but in us. If we could truly keep the Law we would have no need for
a Savior, but because of our sin nature we fall short of that glory
and we can never achieve the perfection the Law puts forth. The
sacrifices themselves were not enough to cover all of our sins. You
are right about the picture they paint of our need and the path
Yeshua would have to take to cover our sin. I also agree it is the
wrong place to start.

As you
said in the ending of your post we could sit here and argue "theology" all day, but in the end where does it get us? I am sure it is
not any closer to reaching those in need of His love. Maybe it would
be better to show where I am coming from. My calling so to speak.

I know
where you are coming from I have seen it a hundred times. People get
caught up in the trappings of religion, church doctrine, whatever you
want to call it and take their eye off the Ball, so to speak. They
are so busy trying that they simply do not let Yeshua be who He is.
I really do understand your central point. He IS LOVE. You will not
find anyone who will agree with you more than I, but I can not help
but see the box. Part of my prophetic calling is the ability to see
the boxes people try to place Him in. While Jehovah is Love, the
complete embodiment of love, a love so complete that we as finite
beings have no capacity to truly understand, He is so much more than
that. He is infinite, we can not begin to comprehend the vastness of
who He is. My calling is one of calling people out of their comfort
zones and try to see Yeshua from a different perspective. Simply put,
to pull people out of their boxes.

You
talk about love and obedience and state that we are never told to
obey Him, yet Yeshua Himself tells us that if we love Him we will
keep His commandments. This is in essence asking us to obey Him.
Obedience out of love is still obedience. This is not something asked
of those who do not know Him, and therefore should not be used as a
tool to guilt someone into accepting Him. This is no different in
our relationship to our children. One of the ways we ask them to
show their love for us is to abide by our rules. Rules do not negate
love, what negates love is abuse of the rules. When the rules become
more important than the relationship then love is no longer involved.

I find
it odd that you would comment on my worship and adoration of Yeshua.
True worship is personal and cannot be defined. It is the essence of
the relationship we have the our Creator. In essence if you love Him
the worship will flow out of your being it is not controllable. How
can you make the claim that I do not know what worship is? Do you
even know what I have heard, what I have seen? Where I have been?
Once you have been touched by the hand of the One who made the very
fabric of who you are you will never be the same.

Now
to that nit I have to pick. When making a WILD
claim like Yeshua is his FIRST
begotten son, back it up with scripture because it flies in the face
of what just about every follower of Yeshua knows. I will even go so
far as to quote Yeshua on the matter. If you want to argue take it
up with Him, because I will take His Word over yours any day.

For
God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

John 3:16 KJV

For
God so loved the world that he gave his one
and only
Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal
life.

John 3:16 NIV

For
God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave
up His only
begotten (unique)
Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on)
Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal
(everlasting) life

John 3:16 AMP

The Duckman Says a Good Thing

Roland has a good post on his blog.  I am going to quote him as I could not have said it better.

"

I was thinking that at least as far as the truth goes, Paul does seem to have a good piece of it. If he is winning all these polls about who was most right in the debates, he must know what the right answers are. So why isn't RP getting more votes? He seems to know what he's talking about.

And it started me thinking about other groups who speak the truth. And yet, like Paul, people agree, but don't attend that particular church or group. Again, why? They are speaking the truth, right?

How one speaks truth will determine how effective you might be in swaying others to believe as you do. If you are the best debater and win all the arguments, but have not love, it is meaningless. If you can point out how badly others sin, but have not love, it is as a clanging gong. It will grate on peoples nerves. It will irritate them.

I don't know why Ron Paul isn't getting votes. Maybe there is some of that love that isn't showing through.

I don't know why some churches get less attenders and their congregation changes faces every few years. Maybe there isn't love showing through there.

Speaking the truth is a great thing. But not doing it in love, is like having salt that has no flavor. Might as well pitch it. It isn't doing its job.

So on this Groundhog's day, don't be afraid of the shadows. Hold fast to the truth, but don't forget why your doing it. Love your enemies. Love as God loves. He loved us while we were yet enemies. And when he shares his truth, try to figure out why he's doing it.
Think twice about they guy in the suit telling you about how rotten you are and try to see why he might be doing it.
After all, some people are voting for Paul, so there must be something there.

If the person really cares about you, they will treat you like an equal. Whether you deserve it or not. If they don't, you might want to ponder. And when you ponder, think about the love they haven't yet received. Sometimes the ones who speak the truth, forget the point of why they are supposed to be doing it. 

                              "