I stayed
out of things in the judgment post until now because I wanted to see
how things unfolded. I think it is time to wade back in. First I want
to thank Geppy for coming by and adding to this discussion. Now onto
the meat of things.
Lets see
if I have things right so far. It breaks down into two camps. The
first believing that there is no place for and individual to make a
judgment about whether or not someone is committing a sin, and that
making that judgment is in fact sin our our part. The second being
the camp that states that an individual may judge if another
individuals actions are sinful under specific circumstances. Those
circumstances being that we have our own affairs in order and that we
are willing to be judged by that same measuring stick. Am I right so
far? I do believe that I am. Just for full disclosure I fall into
that second camp.
With
that said, for those who do not know me I am a stickler for
scriptural accuracy. Meaning that you make an argument about
scripture back it up. I am open to changing my position if you can.
Be prepared to be challenged and be willing to change your position
if I can prove my case. Do not bring me an emotional argument as it
will fall on deaf ears.
So let
me tackle a little bit of inaccuracy to begin with from our new
friend Geppy (nothing personal, I am an equal opportunity picker)
“Second
is the Church. The Church body is responsible to judge whether one of
its members is living a continous sin for which he/she is
unrepentent. After attempting to get this person to repent (70×7)
and the person will not repent, then the Church should put the person
out of the Church so as to not bring judgement from Jesus on the
entire body. (Note: this does not give one Church body the right to
judge another Church body; this judgement is restricted to an
organization of people - a community.)â€
Lets
start with the 70 X 7 thing. The reference to 70 X 7 has nothing to
do with repentance it has to do with one individual forgiving another
who has wronged him. It was basically a statement about the fact we
are always to forgive those who cause us harm. I guess if you are anal enough to keep track of someone wronging you 490 times you could make a case, but then if you are keeping track is really forgiveness? Repentance on the
other hand is a single act of contrition. It is a turning away from
sin unto rightness with G_d.
Church
discipline is a whole other ball of wax. The point that is being
stated here is in fact the final part of a three step approach. Each
of the steps before it require that a judgment is made, first by an
individual and then by a group of three. The first step in this
process refutes Geppy's argument that individuals are never to make a
judgment. Church discipline is not about keeping a church body out of
disfavor with G_d as much as it is about bringing an unrepentant
brother back into fellowship with his Savior.
I think
that at this point I need to be clear about what judgment is. First,
as Billy D stated, judgment is not condemnation. Judgment is an
evaluation. (i.e. Is it right or is it wrong?) Condemnation is when
that judgment is taken and acted upon in a negative manner. (i.e.
Telling someone they are vile, evil, and will rot in hell because
they did something wrong.) Do you see the difference? Judgment is
required in order to help our brother lift himself out of the mire he
has gotten into. It is a warning that states “Do not go that way
for death is there†If we truly love our brethren then we have an
obligation to help them in their need, and that includes lovingly
helping them turn from the sin in their lives
9 comments:
"lovingly helping them turn from the sin in their lives"
What would be the loving course of action in any given situation?
Or does it change, based on circumstances?
Those words sound good. But what really is 'love'?
Lets see if I have things right so far. It breaks down into two camps. The first believing that there is no place for and individual to make a judgment about whether or not someone is committing a sin, and that making that judgment is in fact sin our our part.
I would only add that the position of this first camp is illogical and self-contradictory. By declaring that judging the bahaviour of others is wrong, the declarer is in fact rendering judgment, thus breaking his own rule. The only solution for those in the first camp is to never discuss this subject at all. Or any other subject that involves an opinion.
I am sorry to see Geppy leave. I guess he did not like having me point out that saying that he did not think we could aspire to a higher ideal than our base nature was in fact "passing judgement" on all men.
I am not afraid to be told I am wrong. All I want is a rational Biblical argument for the possiton that making a judgment is a sin. We can go on day after day about the abuse that we do to each other. That is not the argument here. Just as Roland and others have I have felt the sting of unwarnted condemnations upon what I believe. Abuse comes in all shades and is not a rational argument for not judging whether or not an action is wrong. It is this same kind of thinking that states we should not disipline our children because some children are abused by their parents.
Well, we're told to hate the sin, not the sinner. Now, unless I can deem (maybe a better word than "judge"?) something as sinful, I can't really do much. Calling sin "sin" isn't judgement of someone, but something. That's an important distinction.
If we are to judge the nations, how is it that we don't have the wisdom to judge a single act? And how is it that the local church seems to gain this wisdom when the individual members do not possess it?
Regarding Roland's examples, sin is sin. It doesn't matter why one sinned. Simply that one did. Is my response to that person going to vary by circumstance? Of course. That is both wisdom and grace but also justice as well. For there can be no justice without grace also.
And as Eagle brought up, the first course of action is for a single believer to confront the sinner. It then escalates from there. this means that it is our duty to judge our brethren as it is theirs to judge us. It is NOT up to us to judge non-believers at this time as they do not live by our standards.
If we are to judge the nations
Angels, too. Here is the scripture Erik alludes to:
1Co:6:1: Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co:6:2: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co:6:3: Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co:6:4: If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I know where I stand on this issue personally, but do not feel like wading into it with people that are older & wiser than I (which is pretty much everyone on either side of this debate ;). I just wanted to say that from what I have read, the differences in opinion seem to largely have to do with where the participants are in their walk with G-d.
I also just wanted to say "Howdy" to you, Eaglewood, as I haven't dropped a comment here in a little while. =)
Honestly, I think the problem is a difference between Western (Greek) thought and Hebrew thought. If you would go to the foundation - Torah - you would find that this is not such a problem. When Jimmie brought out that it has to do with action, he is coming more from a Hebrew mindset. We are all being transformed in our thinking and this is one we really need to have our Father transform.
Another thing is that dealing in the family/community of the redeemed is different than how we deal with the world. That is plainly seen in the scriptures. The world is trapped in sin and is going to sin. We are supposed to be freed from its power, but we often don't walk in it. That does not give us the excuse to keep on in sin, and if we truly love one another, we will speak the truth in love to our brother and hope he does the same for us. It is so easy to just take one topic or area of scripture and not put it with all the rest that give the balance. That is why we need the Ruach (Spirit) of G-d. Only He can do the work in us to bring that balance. Honestly, though, give a thought to how you sound when you promote tolerance and non-judging in the same way those who don't know G-d teach it. That should be a real warning flag that maybe we need to have our minds transformed.
As far as judgment, I've experienced it many times and a lot of them were not out of love. The main thing is that I grew through the experience even if it was not done out of a good motive. I have learned to say with the Psalmist - Let a righteous man strike me it is a kindness. That scripture in about the 140th Psalm talks about rebukes being as the anointing oil on the head. I know we can run from it, but how will we ever learn the wisdom it takes to practice true judgment if we just keep on in the immature view of it?
Love and shalom,
Serena
Well thought out Serena.
I concur.
Post a Comment